I appreciate all of the comments folks, and thank you. I am reading each and every one but at this time I'm just going to allow this to go where it will without replying directly to any particular ones. I don't do this out of rudeness, but rather to see where it goes whithout my direct interference.

Just call it quiet observation, or an experiment, whichever you prefer.

Good article. Here's a saying a good friend gave me.....

Thank you Lord for granting me this new day in my life.
Especially since I loused up yesterday so badly.
Amen

Emphasis is on "I loused up"

I find that the people who espouse TRUE christianity are the ones who go about it quietly

I think this was once my view also, but I came to see that, in deciding what was 'true' christianity I was trying to impose my own idea (with its cuddly eastern flavour) of what christianity should be on the reality. (BakerStreet's comments have had a lot to do with opening my eyes on this one).

Nowadays, I simply agree that 'true' christianity is whatever christians say it is, and it really has nothing much to do with a non-christian like me. The fact that they can disagree so ferociously amongst themselves, of course, doesn't make it any easier.

Saint Francis preaching to the birds is 'true' christianity, but so is the zeal of the inquisitor Torquemada. Gentle Jesus, Meak and Mild is true christianity, but so is 'Onward Christian Soldiers!'. The cuddly love-fest of happy-clappydom is true christianity, but so is High Church pomp and ritual. If Satan's Penultimate Advocate believes that the essence of the faith is a razor-sharp 'attitude', swearing at opponents on-line and being rude, aggressive and obnoxious, then I'll accept that too, and simply decide it's not for me.

I do feel though a small rush of chivalrous impulse to come to the defence of KFC. I've made plain my disagreement with her style of religion both in comments left on other blogs and in an article of my own. However, I've never had the feeling that she was ever dishonest or hypocritical in anything she has said... just wrong!

Of course, to some extent we do reflect our personalities in our religious choices (and this is where I get to plug the Holy Way of the Miltant Fence-sitters ), but even so, we shouldn't confuse the messenger with the message. Not liking what someone has to say, shouldn't automatically mean not liking that person, and full kudos to people like KFC and Tova who make that distinction in what they write here really clearly.

Another reason I think we find these discussions difficult is that what we believe often seems so blindingly obviously true to us, that we are astonished to find that people can disagree with us. We therefore begin to believe it must be because of some flaw in their character, unable to accept that it could just be honest intellectual disagreement.

I think that how we handle difference and disagreement is right at the heart of religious life (in any religion). It's the sharp end at which we have to put into practice, right here and now, whatever wisdom and compassion we've been able to pick up along the way.

I'm not quite sure and am quite shocked to be honest at the venom displayed in my direction by certain ladies here. I don't think I've said one nasty hateful thing to any of them but I seem to be in their line of fire. For what?

Did you read the article where she proudly proclaimed that her kid slept on the sidewalk rather than sleep in the same room as his girlfriend? I did. How about the one where she said that her son had been saved from death in a car accident because god has a plan for him? I read that one too.

I see alot of parroting going on here. Dharma, LW and TW are all saying the same things. I wrote one paragraph on this. ONE. This is not two articles but one Dharma, and it was titled "The Car Accident" and in it I gave credit to God honoring my son cuz he honored God's. That's it. Am I getting crucified for this? I'm sorry it upset you all. I'll be careful not to mention anything like this again. Will they make you happy?

One thing you're not taking into account, is the family members I have that read my blog for updates on my kids. So I write positive things. I don't trash them. Would it make you happy if I did? Then you can feel sorry for me? That's what you all do and I don't get involved in your pity parties nor do I criticize you for them. I just ignore it.

Thanks to Baker and Chak. Even tho we disagree at times....alot actually, I genuinely enjoy chatting with you as well as many other JU folk. I think we do so in a respectful manner and I continue to continue that way.

I find that the people who espouse TRUE christianity are the ones who go about it quietly,

see this is it in a nutshell. Keep quiet right Dharma? That's what you want me to do. I know that. I'm quite aware of where you're coming from and I don't push my beliefs on you now do I? But you know what? If you needed help in any way, I'd be the first to help when the rest have left you alone.

Jesus had great crowds following him around. How quiet do you think he was when he overturned the tables? Or when he was blasting out the Pharisees? Take a look at Peter and Paul and see how quiet they were. Peter came right out and boldly declared that he would not shut up because he was on God's schedule, not man's.

I also am on God's schedule, not woman's.

You had 7 tips. Isn't 7 the devils number?

But seriously, this is a really good article, Mason. I have a friend who introduced me to a musician mate of his, at a pub, standing at the bar. I had a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other. The first thing this guy said to me was 'So, do you believe in the Lord, our God?". I laughed at him, turned to my friend and asked if the guy was for real. Unfortunately, my friend said he was. That pretty much ended the conversation there. There are times and places, as you well pointed out. This was neither.

 

Isn't 7 the devils number?

Nope.  Seven is the number of "completion" or means "completely."  It is often associated with God....6 might be the number you are thinking about....one short of complete..hehe;)  (I know this because Tova is the Hebrew equivalent of "God is Good"...and I chose 7 to make it be...God is good completely!)

and full kudos to people like KFC and Tova who make that distinction in what they write here really clearly.

Wow Chak thanks.  I have to say I didn't really join JU thinking I might be in "religious" discussions.  Of course I didn't know much about JU when I joined.  The truth is, KFC is a much stronger and more learned advocate for Christ than I am at this moment in time.

I'm still ironing out the kinks in some ideas about God I made/learned which were wrong and I'm more a Work in Progress....haha.  Life application is where I need more work.

Thanks for the kind words though.  I appreciate them.  I think highly of KFC so I don't mind being lumped in with the likes of her!

I don't agree with your points entirely as written, but agree with the spirit of them, at least. I try to live out my faith as best I can, and encourage others to do the same.

One note, though: the people who need this advice most are the ones who are least likely to receive it. But, good notes all the same.

Mason

Insightful post!

see this is it in a nutshell. Keep quiet right Dharma? That's what you want me to do. I know that. I'm quite aware of where you're coming from and I don't push my beliefs on you now do I?

I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing such words as manipulation. Personally, I don't see the offense that some take to differing beliefs. Then again, I live in California, and even though I, a conservative, live in a conservative city, there are liberals here and they can be vocal. Personally, I respect vocalness even if it offends to silence in the name of appeasing others. Even if I disagree with them (sometimes quite strongly), at least they are serious enough about their ideas that they'll fight for them rather than keep them locked up lest they offend somebody with them. I guess as somebody who has friends from diverse backgrounds, I'm not as offended when somebody thinks I'm wrong as they are when somebody thinks they're wrong.

No, you THINK that you practice them. To me (and I'm sure I'm not alone) you ARE one of the people Mason's talking about. You and KFC are both prime examples of pharisees in my book. You both crow about what you do: "look what I did just so's I'd be pleasing to god! I'm following ALL of his rules!!!!!!!!!!!!" and I find it insufferably sickening.

I'm sure you aren't alone, but I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I am not.

Let's see... 1. I don't quote scripture unless I'm making a point about scripture. 2) I never tell anybody this. 3) I do this all the time. Religion is in the minority of subjects I talk about. 4) I definitely don't tell people I'll pray for them, unless they ask me to (or they're a friend who I know wants to hear it). 5) Granted, I don't go to bars much, but then again, I don't go out much. Church definitely isn't the only place I go to though. 6) That was the MSN Chat years when I was all into religion. I acknowledge that there are many similarities among all beliefs. I don't think that means much though. After all, men share many organs with women, but there are still differences. 7) Now I'm positive I have the best sense of humor out of anybody here. I don't get offended when somebody attacks Mac users, Christians (as South Park, Simpsons, Family Guy, etc. have done), or when somebody attacks Republicans (i.e. Daily Show, Colbert Report, etc.). In fact, the only reason I don't like Landover Baptist is because they ruin the verisimilitude by linking to stupid ass anti-Christian and anti-Bush bumper stickers and shirts and having the "This is a parody site" disclaimer. I prefer satirists to stay in character when they're doing the show.
So, do you think I'm lying about any (or all) of that?

It's christians like you that drove me away from the church and then from christianity.

Richard Dawkins might be a jerk, but that doesn't mean evolution isn't real. Of course, to somebody who is looking for excuses to deny evolution, it does.

The truth is, KFC is a much stronger and more learned advocate for Christ than I am at this moment in time

Hey I wouldn't short change yourself...you can hold your own

I'm still ironing out the kinks in some ideas about God I made/learned which were wrong and I'm more a Work in Progress....haha. Life application is where I need more work.

Aren't we all W.I.P.'s? I think of all those that were in the presence of God and how they all felt undone...Gideon, Elijah, John and Isaiah come to mind. No matter how far we think we've come we'd all come undone in the presence of such light.

I think highly of KFC so I don't mind being lumped in with the likes of her!

thanks, I appreciate that. After all.... we are sisters that just haven't met yet. Pretty cool.

1. Communicate with people on their level (lesson from Paul here folks). Don't start quoting scriptures to non-Christians, it's both a waste of time and very,very annoying. Try speaking in human terms for a change.

** In fact, why quote scripture to Christians at all. Since they are “saved”, leave them alone you putz.


2. Never, under any circumstances, tell someone "I'm telling you this out of love" and then begin telling them all of the things you think they are doing wrong in their lives. Personally, if I were in their shoes, I'd smack ya a good one and walk off. I know I certainly wouldn't listen. It's human nature. Besides, it just makes you sound like a selfrighteous ass.

** Those that are Christians really believe they are telling out of love. So why not let them tell it like it is. Real people will see the scam a mile away.

3. Try holding a few conversations with people every day, either online or in real life, without bringing up religion at all. It may be hard at first but if you keep trying you may actually start coming across as a real human being for a change.

** Yea, like Christians aren’t real humans. Got to wonder if Arabs are real humans they way the make war. I mean beheading someone’s daughter, and the putting the head in a box with a bomb. For Pete’s sake.


4. If you are concerned about someone's soul, pray for them. Don't tell them you are going to pray for them, that's offensive as hell whether you believe it or not, just do it and keep your comments to yourself.

** Actually did you know that if you tell someone your going to pray for them when they are sick they are less likely to get better (whether you pray for them or not).

5. Try spending some time hanging out where non-Christians hang out. Go out to a local bar or whatever. I know, many of you wouldn't be caught dead in a place like that. Why? Just who do you think Jesus spent most of his time hanging out with? It's right there in Matthew if you care to read it. He was accused of being a drunkard and all sorts of nasty things because of the places He hung out and the people He spent time with. If it's good enough for Jesus, why isn't it good enough for you? Guess what? That's where the sinners are! Or are you more comfortable hanging with the choir? Or maybe you're afraid of what others will think of you just as the Hypocrites were? Hmmmmm?

** Jees, I am a non Christian (as if you couldn’t tell), and I don’t go to bars. Hmmm, Try the bike trails or tennis courts, maybe skiing.

6. Study other religions and philosophies. You'd be surprised how much you can learn from them and how much many of them have in common with each other and with Christianity. It may help you understand people better. Just do it with an open mind.

** Yea, do that. Its what I did when I was “saved”. I learned much, and I learned about the Koran, Alah, Mormons, JW’s and much more.

7. Get a sense of humor already. God never meant for us to be so damned serious all the time. Even He has a sense of humor; look at the platypus for crying out loud. Or better yet, look in the mirror as that's a great place for anyone to find something to laugh at.

** No comment.